702, Monday night

He's been coming to the Madlanga Commission for a long time and so forth. Are we getting a better grip on what Cat Matlala represents in all of this? I think so, Aubrey. I mean, it just comes across as though Matlala was really used. And actually, I use this very lightly, the term used, by a lot of people, it seems. And at many times, people were asking this for.

Money. And it seems as though he was in the British commerce, the easy target for some of these officials in SAPS to really get money from. Because when you look at some of the WhatsApp exchanges, a lot of these guys were asking Kat for money, and it was I give you, and you would give me in return. So they would promise him not facing charges, or they will promise him clearing him or making sure that his problems with the political killings task him go away.

And in return, she would give the money. I mean, in one of the statements from IDAC that we are yet to give you, there are talks about purchases of a farm for Sevilla. So it seems as though there were many promises made to Matala, and all he had to do was really give the money. And you've seen the same issue with Brown Mukhosi, where Brown Muhoti, when he first introduced himself to Matala,

He said, I can make your problems go away. And this related to those raised at his home in December of 2024. But soon after that, we saw in the WhatsApp exchanges how Baran Mukoti was already asking for money. And we've seen something very similar with former police minister Bedi Kele, where Matala says he himself also was asking him for money. So he seemed to have been really the money guy for a lot of these officials.

Longest time we heard that Matala was a kingpin. He was one of the top leaders of the so-called five-member cartel and so forth. And in many ways, I got a sense that it was a way by which the South African story was trying to ingratiate itself to the New York Mafiosa story of the five families. If you know the stories, etc. But my question to you is.